ASUC Senate postpones decision on Israeli academic boycott bill

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Ariel Hayat/Staff

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An ASUC Senate bill addressing academic relations with Israeli institutions was postponed indefinitely after an impassioned discussion from community members at a committee meeting Monday night.

More than 100 students, professors, UC alumni and other community members gathered in Anna Head Alumnae Hall to voice their opinions on Senate Bill 11, titled “A Bill in Support of the Free Flow of Ideas and International Academic Collaboration,” which was sponsored by Student Action Senator Ori Herschmann.

The bill called for the ASUC to endorse “academic freedom” and to support academic exchanges such as those between UC Berkeley and Israeli academic institutions.

In particular, the bill called for the ASUC to reject academic boycotts against Israeli academic institutions, such as those by the American Studies Association and the Association for Asian American Studies. The American Studies Association voted to boycott Israeli academic institutions on the grounds that these institutions are subject to state policies that allegedly violate human rights.

The bill also called for the ASUC to denounce a student-organized event scheduled for next week that, among other points, advocates an academic boycott of Israel. The International Day of Action on College Campuses for Palestine, scheduled for Tuesday, calls for no “academic complicity” with the Israeli government, according to the event’s Facebook page — including no study abroad programs in Israel and no joint research or conferences with Israeli institutions.

Such academic boycotts, the bill asserts, are violations of academic freedom.

When the committee floor opened for public comment, many opponents of the bill brought up the institutional academic roadblocks for Palestinian students under Israeli law.

Viveka Jagadeesan, a campus junior and member of Students for Justice in Palestine at UC Berkeley, opposed the bill, saying its language was problematic. She said it failed to clarify that the academic boycott applies only to Israeli institutions with “discriminatory policies,” not to individual Israeli academics.

Additionally, she said the contents of the bill contradicted its claim to support free speech.

“When I read the bill, I was quite struck that the bill claimed to support the free flow of ideas when one of its calls to action was to condemn a student-organized event on campus,” Jagadeesan said.

Supporters of the bill stood before the committee in silence, holding books wrapped in caution tape to symbolize their belief that academic boycotts restricted academic freedom.

Herschmann said the bill’s intent was to address the “limiting of speech and academia” for Israeli students on campus, not the “geopolitics of the Middle East.” He said the bill was misread and taken out of context.

SQUELCH! Senator Madison Gordon, who strongly encouraged the committee to postpone the bill indefinitely, agreed that the intent of the bill was different from the impact it created. She said to accomplish future goals and address advocacy issues, the senate class will have to work as a collective unit.

“The senators really tried to come to some sort of compromise by not taking it to a vote, as voting would have inevitably alienated some students,” Gordon said.

CalSERVE Senator Haley Broder said she is eager to move past this divisive issue.

“This will not be the defining issue of our senate class,” Broder said.

Michelle Pitcher covers student government. Contact her at [email protected] and follow her on Twitter @michellepitcher.

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  • Tempest5000

    Senator Ori Herschmann should realize how idiotic he looks because of this. The bill’s intention was “misread and taken out of context”? BS Herschmann. You knew the second the cards were stacked against you that you would have to fold. People like him are why students don’t take ASUCK seriously.

  • AnOski

    Very strange analogy. In the 30’s, Nazis were rising to power and Jews had ~none. In the current situation, the Jews hold all of the cards and weapons. A boycott on a powerless minority is a little different than a boycott on a military superpower.

    • Arafat

      You’re right but wrong too.

      The reason for the boycott – the core reason is the same. Anti-Semitism is nothing new and the rationale for it changes so that those practicing it can feel better about themselves.

      • AnOski

        And now being against the genocide of Palestinians makes one an anti-semite. Go figure. I guess I must be one of those self-hating Jews.

        • Dan Spitzer

          “I guess I must be one of those self-hating Jews.” Hey, AnOski. I give you credit. At least you admit it. ;-) Out of compassion, may I suggest therapy for you or are you already posting from a mental institution?

          • Arafat

            Dan, a big LOL from over here.

            Did you know that despite the Palestinian population soaring since 1948 that they are victims of genocide?

            If AnOski isn’t in a mental institution than he must be a liberal university institution instead. These are two institutions where this kind of madness is accepted as the norm.

          • AnOski

            Quit patting yourself on the back, Dan/Arafat/Mel Content. Not all of us are so insecure to make multiple accounts. You use the same arguments and fail to comprehend the definitions of the same words, misusing them in posts by different usernames.

          • Arafat

            Quit patting yourself on the back, An/Os/ski. Not all of us as so insecure to make multiple accounts. You use the same arguments and fail to comprehend the definitions of the same words, misusing them in posts by different usernames.

          • AnOski

            Riiiight. Keep at it. The timing of your posts is spot on as well ;)

          • Arafat

            Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Keep at it. The timing of your posts is spot on as well:)

          • AnOski

            You can’t sensibly use that comeback in this context, as there aren’t multiple accounts regurgitating the same inane, idiosyncratic arguments on this side. Only your side.

          • Arafat

            Fortunately millions of non-Muslims are being forced by
            world events to wake up to how truly dangerous Islam is. We ex-Muslims know
            that Mohammedanism must go the way of the dinosaur or the planet will drown in
            the blood of sharia as Muslims enforce the laws of Islam.

          • AnOski
          • Arafat

            You’re finally right. Judaism is so much better.
            For starters Jews see no purpose in converting others which Muslims must do (by force or otherwise). Just this simple difference explains a lot.
            Tell me of something the Jews have ever done like what Muslims are doing in Syria, or the one million killed during the Iran/Iraq War, or the one million Armenians killed by Muslims preceding WWI, etc…
            Anoski, the only thing you’ve proven is that you are a stooge for Islam which means someone who covers up the horrors that define Islam’s core tenets.

          • AnOski

            >You’re finally right. Judaism is so much better.

            Lol.

            http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/30/israeli-airline-ultra-orthodox-men-bullying-women

            http://www.timesofisrael.com/suspected-jewish-child-abuse-cult-flees-quebec-homes/

            >For starters Jews see no purpose in converting others which Muslims must do (by force or otherwise).

            Red herring. I’d rather convert to Islam than be a lowly Arab, killed by Israel for not being Jewish. If Zionism allowed Palestinian Arabs to convert to Judaism and become equal members of society in their own homeland, it would be similar to ISIS’ actions in Iraq, where local populations are being forced to convert — or die.

            Israel isn’t giving the Palestinians that came choice. Israel’s actions are actually less tolerant than ISIS.’

            >Just this simple difference explains a lot.

            Yes. Yes it does.

            >Tell me of something the Jews have ever done like what Muslims are doing in Syria, or the one million killed during the Iran/Iraq War, or the one million Armenians killed by Muslims preceding WWI, etc…

            I just did. If you’re too biased to see it, that’s your problem, not mine. You’ve already openly denied the confirmed thousands of Palestinian *civilian* deaths that have occurred at the hands of Israel over the past few months (BBC, NYT, UN, Amnesty International, etc.), so I don’t know what else to say.

            >Anoski, the only thing you’ve proven is that you are a stooge for Islam which means someone who covers up the horrors that define Islam’s core tenets.

            With citations to official UN and Amnesty International documents, and extensive quotations from sources like BBC and the New York Times.

            There’s only one stooge here, and it isn’t me.

          • Mel Content

            You can’t sensibly use that comeback in this context, as there aren’t
            multiple accounts regurgitating the same inane, idiosyncratic arguments
            on this side.

            Ever thought for a moment that there may just be more than one person who disagrees with you, or is that too much for your small mind to handle?

          • AnOski

            The fact that “two” of you commented on different posts with the same point illustrating the same (wrong) definition of the word “genocide” isn’t on your side.

          • Mel Content

            The fact that “two” of you commented on different posts with the same
            point illustrating the same (wrong) definition of the word “genocide”
            isn’t on your side.

            You have provided no rational definition of “genocide”, and your argument that the Israelis are committing genocide by conducting interdiction strikes against locations of hostile fire are incredibly weak.

          • AnOski

            You’re claiming that widely accepted definitions verbatim per the UN, etc. are “not rational.”

            ‘Nuff said.

          • Mel Content

            Quit patting yourself on the back, Dan/Arafat/Mel Content.

            Are you under the impression that we are all the same person? We are most certainly not…

          • AnOski
          • Mel Content

            Sure thing, Mel. Sure thing.

            Sources and cites that we’re all the same person, Oski. Or is this merely another one of your nutty accusations that you can’t back up with facts?

          • AnOski

            Oh, the UN and Amnesty International aren’t with me on this one, but it’s evident from, again, the timing and content of the posts. I’m the only one to have cited multiple external documents in this back and forth, so I’m not really sure what your point is.

          • Dan Spitzer

            Arafat, it reaches a point where one sees so much idiocy from Pali pals like AnOski that it become a waste of time to respond to them, as any reasonable reader of these posts realizes that if one stops providing rejoinders, AnOaski and company wind up talking to themselves. No intelligent reader would take AnOski’s playing fast and loose with facts and history seriously. So I won’t continue to respond to him.
            But there is always room for levity. AnOski’s terming Israeli “genocide of Palestinians”–turning on its head what the Palestinians say they would like to do worldwide–flies in the face of the growth of the Palestinian population from about a million at the turn of the 20th century to now better than 8 million. Or as comedian Dennis Miller said about the Palestinians failing to practice responsible birth control, “Don’t those morons know that’s a vagina, not a clown car?!”

          • Arafat

            Thanks for the advice!

        • Mel Content

          And now being against the genocide of Palestinians makes one an anti-semite.

          Except there is no “genocide”, which is a word suggesting one racial, ethnic, or national group killing off another. In reality, it’s FRATICIDE, with Palestinians deliberately implementing policies to get other Palestinians killed, solely for the propaganda value…

          • AnOski

            >Except there is no “genocide”, which is a word suggesting one racial, ethnic, or national group killing off another.

            Israeli Jews are killing Palestinian Arabs by the thousands.

            >In reality, it’s FRATICIDE, with Palestinians deliberately implementing policies to get other Palestinians killed, solely for the propaganda value…

            Right, the “stop hitting yourself” argument. The “you have no right to continue to live in your own country or fight us for your homes” argument.

            Go find some morals.

          • Mel Content

            Israeli Jews are killing Palestinian Arabs by the thousands.

            Oh, really? Please elaborate…

            Go find some morals.

            I found them, and my moral code tells me that condemning others for merely defending themselves is wrong. Get your head out of your posterior and stop being some knee-jerk fool who believes every piece of propaganda spouted by hysterical left-wing anti-semitic fruitcakes…

          • AnOski

            >I found them, and my moral code tells me that condemning others for merely defending themselves is wrong.

            So Palestinians are morally defensible. We’re making excellent progress. Same time next week?

            >Get your head out of your posterior and stop being some knee-jerk fool who believes every piece of propaganda spouted by hysterical left-wing anti-semitic fruitcakes…

            There’s only one person here in a position to comment on their duodenum right now, and it’s not me. Ethnic cleansing is what it is.

            http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/noam_chomsky-it_is_not_war_it_is_murder_by_zionist_israel.jpg

          • Mel Content

            Ethnic cleansing is what it is.

            Care to tell us what “ethnic cleansing” is going on, or is this merely the type of hysterical hyperbole you spread when you’re incapable of dealing with facts or logic?

          • Mel Content

            Israeli Jews are killing Palestinian Arabs by the thousands.

            The deaths are not “in the thousands”, unless Palestinians are stupid enough to let terrorists use their homes to shoot rockets, and lack the common sense to leave when they get that phone call or knock-knock on the roof from the IDF letting them know that an F-16 will be delivering a GLB-equipped Mark 82 shortly…

          • AnOski

            >The deaths are not “in the thousands”,

            http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html

            >unless Palestinians are stupid enough to let terrorists use their homes to shoot rockets,

            Utter nonsense.

            http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/03/world/middleeast/assessing-the-damage-and-destruction-in-gaza.html?_r=0

            The rockets launched from Gaza actually cause little to no damage. The bombs Israel drops on Gaza are not small munitions.

            http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76606000/jpg/_76606823_gaza-smoke.jpg

            http://www.thenational.ae/storyimage/AB/20140727/ARTICLE/140729372/AR/0/&MaxW=640&imageVersion=default&AR-140729372.jpg

            When you drop a 2,000 lb bomb, you’re not choosing which building to destroy.
            You’re choosing which block to destroy. It’s a way to destroy houses, infrastructure, and kill civilians. Which it does very successfully.

            >and lack the common sense to leave when they get that phone call or knock-knock on the roof from the IDF letting them know that an F-16 will be delivering a GLB-equipped Mark 82 shortly…

            http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/seconds-warning-destroys

            Less than a minute to collect your relatives, belongings, and clear out of your house — when there was no associated rocket being fired from the location, etc? If they’d been above the second floor, they would all be dead, regardless of the “warning.”

            Speaking of which, doesn’t it seem odd to you that Israel would *warn* the occupants of a building when it supposedly believes that Hamas soldiers are in the given building? Either they’re trying to kill Hamas soldiers (shouldn’t give a warning) or they’re just bombing houses (want to “reduce civilian casualties,” so give a minute’s notice).

            Your own arguments don’t make sense. You say there are Hamas soldiers in these buildings, and in the next breath, you say that the civilians in the houses are given a minute’s warning to flee. Which is it?

  • BigSticksWalkSoftly

    Good to see this senate bill did not go anywhere.
    People should have a right to boycott the racist terror land thieves of Israel who feel sky daddy gave them a right to oppress and kill Palestinians with impunity.

    • Mel Content

      Looks like the usual anti-semitic troll has found this forum to spread his bile…

      • BigSticksWalkSoftly

        Don’t you have a donkey to get busy with? or are you too busy building racist apartheid walls on other people’s stolen land?
        Have you burned too many Palestinian olive trees down that you can’t think straight?
        Time to get off mommy’s basement couch. I hope you didn’t steal the couch while spreading too much vitriolic misinformation from your hasbara overlord handlers.

        • Mel Content

          Don’t you have a donkey to get busy with? or are you too busy building racist apartheid walls on other people’s stolen land?

          I see you’re still here, spouting your ignorant bile. For starters, how is Israel “racist” when (a) the Sephardic Jews of Israel are the same race as the Palestinians (i.e. caucasian), and Israel has far more non-whites (i.e. Ethopians) than the Palestinian territories? In addition, you’re clearly ignorant regarding the definition of “apartheid” which was a Dutch/Afrikaans term for “apartness” or “separation”, and was a deliberate effort to deny black South Africans of citizenship by assigning them citizenships to “homelands” they did not want in the first place, in order to deny them rights as South African citizens. The situation with the Palestinians is completely different. They do not WANT Israeli citizenship, otherwise they would be living in Israel and be known as what are referred to as “Israeli Arabs”. In fact, their leadership denies the right of Israel to even exist.

          Time to get off mommy’s basement couch.

          Nice try, but I have actually spent time in both Israel and the Palestinian West Bank. What’s the closest you have personally been to the situation other than some idiotic Berkeley protest?

          • BigSticksWalkSoftly

            The facts remain:
            Israel illegally occupies Palestinian lands and denies Palestinians their civil and human rights.
            Even Albert Einstein warned against the evils of zionazism.
            Why can’t Israel allow Palestinians to return?
            Bottom line questions are tough to answer for illegal racist colonial settlers who pretend to be Semites. Palestinians are real Semites and not wannabe imposters.

  • Arafat

    Google “gays” and “Palestinians” to see
    how gay people are treated by the people who are calling for boycotts,
    divestment, and sanctions against Israel. The first search result is titled,
    “Palestinian gays flee to Israel”

    Google “Palestinian” and “honor
    killings” to see how women are treated by the people who are calling for
    boycotts, divestment, and sanctions against Israel.

    If you are a femalel student (or alumna) who is thinking
    about going to “Palestine” to help protest against the Evil Zionists,
    I suggest that you first read “Female Palestinian Peace Activists Suffer
    Sexual Harassment, Rape From Palestinians” (just Google on the title). You
    might want to reconsider.

    As a final note, look up Israel’s and the Palestinians’
    relative political and civil rights ratings at Freedomhouse.org. Israel’s are
    close to the best possible while those under both Hamas and Fatah are almost
    the worst possible.

    Now, please explain to me again who is guilty of crimes,
    apartheid policies (e.g. dhimmis or second-class citizens in countries under
    militant Islamic rule), and so on. I have not even touched on the Palestinians’
    long litany of mindless terroristic violence including the Munich Massacre, the
    massacre of the Fogel family including young children in their beds, and so on.

    • AnOski

      Even if we were to assume that your racist comments were correct, you’re still just deflecting attention from the genocide at hand. Whatever number of Palestinians have felt persecuted for their sexuality pales in comparison to the number killed by Israel.

      Your argument only works if you think that Palestinians are better off dead.

      • Arafat

        What genocide?

        The Palestinian population has exploded since 1948.

        What world do you live in? Orwell’s?

        • AnOski

          One in which the definition of “genocide” is accurate.

          gen·o·cide
          ˈjenəˌsīd/
          noun
          the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

          E.g. the murder of the 2,000 to 3,000 Palestinians killed in the past ~month or so could be accurately described as genocide.

          Around 100,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel since 1947, but the statistics have become significantly more skewed in recent years.

          http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths

          The number of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths was historically closer to 4:1, but has risen in recent years to approximately 20:1.

          • Dan Spitzer

            Let’s see. Shiites and Sunnis butchering one another by the hundreds weekly and saying they would like to annihilate one another: that’s genocide. Over a million black Darfurian non-Muslims supported by an Isalomofascist regime overtly supported by the Palestinians: that’s genocide. Hutu in Rwanda killing Tutsi to the tune of about a million: that’s genocide.
            Loss of 2,000 Gazans, at least half of whom were combatants and whose other half were frequently the victims of, as Hamas itself has acknowledged, being forced to serve as human shields, that’s a skirmish and the Israelis, rather than the Ham-Asswipes, conducted themselves quite well in protecting their civilian populace. But wait, I forgot, Hamas leaders say they “won the war.”
            Hamas openly stating that it wants both Israeli Jews and Jews everywhere else on the planet annihilated. That’s an advocacy for Jewish genocide.
            AnOski, you stated earlier that you were a “self-hating Jew.” And certainly your support of those who would butcher you on sight-the Palestinians-adds credibility to your contention.

          • AnOski

            >Let’s see. Shiites and Sunnis butchering one another by the hundreds weekly and saying they would like to annihilate one another: that’s genocide.

            Actually, no. Genocide is generally regarded as “murder”: soldiers’ deaths are excluded from such considerations.

            >Over a million black Darfurian non-Muslims supported by an Isalomofascist regime overtly supported by the Palestinians: that’s genocide.

            Oh, please. Now you’re blaming Darfur on Palestine? Wow.

            >Hutu in Rwanda killing Tutsi to the tune of about a million: that’s genocide.

            Yep.

            >Loss of 2,000 Gazans, at least half of whom were combatants and whose other half were frequently the victims of, as Hamas itself has acknowledged, being forced to serve as human shields, that’s a skirmish and the Israelis, rather than the Ham-Asswipes, conducted themselves quite well in protecting their civilian populace. But wait, I forgot, Hamas leaders say they “won the war.”

            Wow. Lies. Ok.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

            Of the ~2,000 confirmed fatalities by this point (Aug. 10th), “at least” 1,402 were civilians. Confirmed militants killed…well, as you can see in the above article, the IDF figure of “253” was too high to make sense given the number of confirmed non-militants, and we have no proof that any of those “unconfirmed” killed were actually militants. So your quote of “1,000” is blatantly erroneous. It seems likely that the number of militants killed was closer to 100; we have no proof that it was even that high.

            >Hamas openly stating that it wants both Israeli Jews and Jews everywhere else on the planet annihilated.

            Again, Israel has pretty much earned that. You have people 50 years old living in Palestine who do not know a life outside of the terror that is the Israeli military. Two-thousand year old communities bisected and cut off from their ancestral lands. Forced to endure weeks-long bombardments that target schools, power plants, hospitals, and other important infrastructure, with no regard for civilian life.

            >That’s an advocacy for Jewish genocide.

            The dissolution of Israel is not Jewish genocide any more than Israel’s attempt at dissolving Palestine is Arab genocide.

            >AnOski, you stated earlier that you were a “self-hating Jew.” And certainly your support of those who would butcher you on sight-the Palestinians-adds credibility to your contention.

            Your argument was farcical, and I was pointing that out. I have nothing to do with the shameful actions being committed by Israel, and supported by people like you. Though you are certainly a stain on the culture that is Judaism.

          • Mel Content

            Wow. Lies. Ok.

            What lies? Please clarify. Are those Palestinians whose homes, schools and hospitals are being used by Hamas to shoot rockets into Israel being forced to do it against their will, or are they voluntarily allowing them access to do so? You can’t have it both ways – which one is it?

          • AnOski

            >Loss of 2,000 Gazans, at least half of whom were combatants and whose other half were frequently the victims of, as Hamas itself has acknowledged, being forced to serve as human shields, that’s a skirmish and the Israelis, rather than the Ham-Asswipes, conducted themselves quite well in protecting their civilian populace. But wait, I forgot, Hamas leaders say they “won the war.”

            Wow. Lies. Ok.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-

            Of the ~2,000 confirmed fatalities by this point (Aug. 10th), “at least” 1,402 were civilians. Confirmed militants killed…well, as you can see in the above article, the IDF figure of “253” was too high to make sense given the number of confirmed non-militants, and we have no proof that any of those “unconfirmed” killed were actually militants. So your quote of “1,000” is blatantly erroneous. It seems likely that the number of militants killed was closer to 100; we have no proof that it was even that high.

            Again, you’re making statements that contract those offered by Amnesty International and the UN observers, who state that Hamas is not using human shields. All of the evidence tells us that Israel is demolishing civilian structures unrelated to Hamas actions knowingly and voluntarily.

            Lies, Mel. Lies.

          • AnOski

            >Loss of 2,000 Gazans, at least half of whom were combatants and whose other half were frequently the victims of, as Hamas itself has acknowledged, being forced to serve as human shields, that’s a skirmish and the Israelis, rather than the Ham-Asswipes, conducted themselves quite well in protecting their civilian populace. But wait, I forgot, Hamas leaders say they “won the war.”

            Wow. Lies. Ok.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-

            Of the ~2,000 confirmed fatalities by this point (Aug. 10th), “at least” 1,402 were civilians. Confirmed militants killed…well, as you can see in the above article, the IDF figure of “253” was too high to make sense given the number of confirmed non-militants, and we have no proof that any of those “unconfirmed” killed were actually militants. So your quote of “1,000” is blatantly erroneous. It seems likely that the number of militants killed was closer to 100; we have no proof that it was even that high.

            Again, you’re making statements that contract those offered by Amnesty International and the UN observers, who state that Hamas is not using human shields. All of the evidence tells us that Israel is demolishing civilian structures unrelated to Hamas actions knowingly and voluntarily.

            Lies, Mel. Lies.

          • Arafat

            Shame on Israel for caring about their citizens instead of cowering behind them as Hamas does every time Hamas incites war.

            Not even the lowest of animals hides behind their children when confronted by danger which tells you where on the evolutionary scale Hamas lies.

          • AnOski

            >Shame on Israel for caring about their citizens

            Again, you’re disregarding the history of the region and its people, as well as the situation they have put themselves in.

            If you invade a country and displace its people, it’s hardly “caring for their citizens” when they kill thousands of the indigenous peoples who are trying to reclaim their homes.
            >instead of cowering behind them as Hamas does every time Hamas incites war.

            War? They’re just trying to reclaim their homes. Call it what it is.

            >Not even the lowest of animals hides behind their children when confronted by danger which tells you where on the evolutionary scale Hamas lies.

            The only person hiding behind anything is you. You’re trying to blame the Israeli murder of Palestinian civilians — on Palestinians.

            Where are you supposed to hide?

            http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2014/7/26/1406371708095/Children-in-Gaza-during-c-006.jpg

            http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2014_30/579031/140723-gaza-strike-630a_e0d7fb67183e8567a77deaea435c57fa.jpg

          • Mel Content

            If you invade a country and displace its people

            When did that happen again?

          • AnOski

            1947 – present

          • Mel Content

            Again, you’re disregarding the history of the region and its people, as well as the situation they have put themselves in.

            The “history of the region” is that the backwards thugs who control 99% of the landmass in the middle east, and who have pretty much chased off all their own indigenous Jewish populations, are incensed that those Jews emigrated to the 1% left and want to keep it. Then again, blaming the Jews and Israel for all your problems is a lot easier than facing the fact that your own culture is a failed one…

          • AnOski

            >The “history of the region” is that the backwards thugs who control 99% of the landmass in the middle east,

            I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, but I think you’re calling all Moslems “thugs.”

            >and who have pretty much chased off all their own indigenous Jewish populations,

            Oh, you’re referring to tribal warfare 2,500 years ago.

            >are incensed that those Jews emigrated to the 1% left and want to keep it.

            In this case, it’s the people who lived on the land who are incensed that their ancestral homes and farms have been taken away from them.

            You call it “1%” of the Middle East. Regardless of what percentage of the greater area it actually is, people lived there. People who are still alive today. And it’s wrong for Jews to come into Palestine and declare it their own just because they want it. It’s unequivocally wrong.

            >Then again, blaming the Jews and Israel for all your problems is a lot easier than facing the fact that your own culture is a failed one…

            Not sure if you’re alluding to me, or Moslems in general.

            If you’re referring to me, I’m half Jewish, although the last of my immediate family with numerical tattoos on their forearms died a few years ago.

            If you’re referring to Moslems, I would point out that it’s not hard to beat the Jewish track record of 1/1 nations founded upon the rationalized, modern ethnic cleansing of millions of indigenous people.

            It’s kind of funny, really. Half of the Middle East is f***d six ways to Sunday, and Israel still takes the cake.

          • Mel Content

            Oh, you’re referring to tribal warfare 2,500 years ago.

            No, I’m referring to the 60+ year old ongoing tantrum the Arab States have
            had since getting their butts kicked by a bunch of Jews they promised to
            wipe off the map back in 1948. The existence of a Jewish state on a
            small sliver of land is apparently a major source of embarrassment and
            shame to hundreds of millions of infantile, bass-ackwards adherents to a
            violent 6th Century death cult masquerading as an organized religion…

            You call it “1%” of the Middle East. Regardless of what percentage of the greater area it actually is, people lived there.

            Yes, some Arabs used to live in Israel – and in fact, many still do. They are called “Israeli Arabs”, primarily Bedouins and other groups who saw no need to engage in some suicidal war with the Israeli Jews, and still live in Israel unmolested to this day, primarily in the Negev in the area of Beersheva…

          • AnOski

            >Oh, you’re referring to tribal warfare 2,500 years ago.

            No, I’m referring to the 60+ year old ongoing tantrum the Arab States have
            had since getting their butts kicked by a bunch of Jews they promised to
            wipe off the map back in 1948.

            >The existence of a Jewish state on a
            small sliver of land is apparently a major source of embarrassment and
            shame

            Embarrassment and shame? They’re fighting to reclaim their homes. Stop disregarding this fact.

            >Yes, some Arabs used to live in Israel – and in fact, many still do.

            Some? They were the vast majority of the population for the past 2,000+ years. Vast majority. In 1947, they were still a substantial majority.

            Those people were forcibly displaced from their homes and villages by Israel. Thousands were slaughtered, unarmed, for refusing to leave their homes.

          • Mel Content

            The number of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths was historically
            closer to 4:1, but has risen in recent years to approximately 20:1.

            Maybe the Palestinian people of the Gaza Strip ought to think about who they elect to represent them next time, and not choose a known terrorist organization intent on using them as hostages and human shields when they launch rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians…

          • AnOski

            For all this talk about human shields, the only actually documented cases have occurred at the hands of Israeli soldiers.

            Here’s some pretty clear photographic evidence for you:

            http://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-soldiers-use-two-palestinian-minors-human-shields/3156

            http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-israeli-soldiers-use-handcuffed-palestinian-teen-human-shield-they-fire

            – But let’s not stop there. Both the UN and Amnesty International refute your claims:

            http://harpers.org/blog/2009/10/six-questions-for-desmond-travers-on-the-goldstone-report/

            https://web.archive.org/web/20090705234403/http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jc0DHbDsRG83m4stW9JdpHz3hxSw

            http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human

            http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/017/2014/en/5b79b682-8d41-4751-9cbc-a0465f6433c3/mde150172014en.html

            You’re simply repeating the IDF’s unsubstantiated claims, which have been refuted by countless correspondents and aid workers with various groups.

            >when they launch rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians…

            Which have killed three people since the start of the most recent Israeli offensive, which simultaneously killed at least 2,000 Palestinian civilians.

          • Mel Content

            Here’s some pretty clear photographic evidence for you:

            So we’re supposed to believe that electronicintifada, a known pro-Palestinian propaganda site, is a credible, objective source? What about all those journalists, many of them who originally professed pro-Palestinian sympathies, who have come out and stated that many of these incidents are staged for the consumption of Western media?

          • AnOski

            >So we’re supposed to believe that electronicintifada, a known pro-Palestinian propaganda site, is a credible, objective source?

            Believe the UN and Amnesty International. I’ve given you the reports, and you’re simply ignoring them and talking about other things.

          • Mel Content

            E.g. the murder of the 2,000 to 3,000 Palestinians killed in the past ~month or so could be accurately described as genocide.

            Except they weren’t “murdered” by anyone except their terrorist leadership Hamas, who uses them as hostages and human shields to conduct rocket attacks against Israeli civilians in violation of the Geneva Conventions rules of warfare. Like most pro-Palestinian sympathizers, you’re quite ignorant of the fact that murder is defined in the context of civilian law. However, if you want to play that game, we’ll do it your way: Hamas shoots mortars and rockets and targets Israeli citizens in the process – that’s a criminal act. Hamas uses Palestinian citizens as hostages and human shields, that’s a criminal act as well.

            When Hamas kills Israeli citizens, according to civilian law, that’s murder. Now what about those Palestinian citizens/hostages/human shields that on occasion get killed when the IDF returns fire to eliminate those same mortar/rock fire bases? It turns out that the Israelis do make quite the effort to give advance warning, with phone calls and/or concussion grenades on rooftops of these buildings prior to attacking them with live ordnance. What happens when Hamas refuses to let these hostages go, and some of them do inadvertently get killed?

            Come on, AnOski: your handle insinuates that you are somehow affiliated with Cal as a current student, alum or member of the faculty/administration. You should be bright enough to know what happens when someone gets killed during the commission of a violent felony (i.e. assault with a deadly weapon). In just about every civilized nation on the planet, including the penal codes of all 50 of our states and various US territories, it’s a principle of law that if you commit a felony and someone gets killed in the process, you can be legally charged with homicide. If you commit a drive-by shooting and miss, BUT commit a hit-and-run and kill someone in the process trying to get away, you can be charged with murder. If you rob a bank, hold an employee or customer hostage, and your hostage gets killed in a shoot-out with the cops, it doesn’t matter whose bullet killed the hostage – you’re still charged with murder for causing the situation to happen in the first place. The deaths of Palestinian civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time is not due to Israelis being murderers, especially when the IDF does its best to give plenty of advance notice of what’s about to happen. If Palestinian civilians are killed during IDF interdiction attacks, it’s either because Hamas is holding them hostage (a criminal act) OR because they are voluntary participants in such activities, which makes them complicit…

          • AnOski

            Both the UN and Amnesty International refute your claims:

            http://harpers.org/blog/2009/1

            https://web.archive.org/web/20

            http://www.newstatesman.com/wo

            http://www.amnesty.org/en/libr

            You’re simply repeating the IDF’s unsubstantiated claims, which have been refuted by countless correspondents and aid workers with various groups.

            >when they launch rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians…

            Which have killed three people since the start of the most recent Israeli offensive, which simultaneously killed at least 2,000 Palestinian civilians.

      • Mel Content

        Even if we were to assume that your racist comments were correct

        What “racist comments”? Or have you merely resorted to the tactics of the BAMN fruit-loops, who scream “racism” every time they can’t win an argument?

        • AnOski

          Says the person who threw out “anti-semite” for any statements uttered against the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

          Saying it’s wrong to kill tens of thousands of people isn’t anti-semitic, Mel. Or is it?

          • Mel Content

            Thousands of people aren’t being killed, and 99% of the ones that were killed were either people conducting belligerent military activities (perfectly legal targets under the rules of war), hostages or human shields (war crimes by Hamas), or those stupid enough to hang around to see what happens, even when warned to leave (Darwin Awards). As for the handful (a few dozen at most) who are genuine collateral damage, war happens – so what in h-ll were the Palestinian people thinking when they elected a bunch of terrorists to represent them in the first place?

          • AnOski

            >Thousands of people aren’t being killed,

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28439404

            Obvious and intentional lie.

            >and 99% of the ones that were killed were either people conducting belligerent military activities (perfectly legal targets under the rules of war), hostages or human shields (war crimes by Hamas), or those stupid enough to hang around to see what happens, even when warned to leave (Darwin Awards).

            Google “death toll Gaza”

            Google puts things in a nice, concise format for you:

            Between 8 July and 27 August, more than 2,100 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip, along with 66 Israeli soldiers and seven civilians in Israel. The UN says the vast majority of Palestinian deaths are civilian.

            Source: BBC News – Gaza crisis: Toll of operations in Gaza – BBC.com

            So, the UN disagrees. I won’t bother to say how you’re so horribly misled re. Gazans being able to leave the strip, etc. But the AP at large and the UN are willing to go on record as saying that the vast majority of the casualties were unrelated civilians.

            >As for the handful (a few dozen at most)

            Lie.

            >who are genuine collateral damage, war happens – so what in h-ll were the Palestinian people thinking when they elected a bunch of terrorists to represent them in the first place?

            Lies. Jesus, Christ man, get with the times. Like the New York Times.

            “An analysis of the statistics provided by both sides suggests that a majority were probably noncombatants. Through last Thursday, according to a New York Times analysis of a list provided by the Health Ministry, more than a third were women, children under 15 or men over 60.”

  • Mel Content

    So have fanatical Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Africa and and elsewhere setting off bombs, beheading aid workers and journalists, stoning women and performing genital mutilations on them, and enslaving young girls to award them as “brides” to pedophiles, and you Berkeley campus activists want to boycott (let me get this straight…) ISRAEL?

    There’s a special place in H*ll for people like you. Your combination of malevolence and stupidity give the rest of us reason to wonder if you’re worthy of a taxpayer-funded college education in the first place…

    • AnOski

      You’re neglecting to address the fanatical Jews in Palestine.

      http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/03/world/middleeast/assessing-the-damage-and-destruction-in-gaza.html

      http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/04/world/meast/gaza-israel-why-civilian-deaths/

      Oh, that’s right. Israel did this as retribution. Retribution for rocket attacks. Rocket attacks that have killed 28 people since they started, in 2000. What’s the death toll of Israeli’s “retribution?” Around 10,000 Palestinian civilians.

      What happens anywhere else in the world may be wrong, and, guess what — we have educational sanctions against many of those countries as well. Don’t deflect to other people. What Israel does is still wrong. If sharing educational resources and technology with them helps them kill more innocent people, then, yes, we should cut Israel off.

      So, yes. We should cut Israel off.

      • 1kenthomas

        Well, lessee. Exactly what response would you think appropriate, if someone started lobbing rockets into Southside?
        Your number of 28 is deceptive; your number of 10,000 is deceptive. Otherwise, what solution do you propose? Hamas and other groups, clearly do not value Palestinian lives, and are willing to trade those lives for publicity on the international stage. Israel is aware of this, has every incentive to limit civilian casualties, and in fact, when analyzed, limits civilian casualties far better than, for instance, the US or UK.
        Or should the Jewish people sit back, fail to defend themselves against an enemy that has declared that there is no solution but their destruction, and accept slaughter? Is that what you’re suggesting?

        • AnOski

          >Well, lessee. Exactly what response would you think appropriate, if someone started lobbing rockets into Southside?

          Let’s add this to the situation.

          Early 19th century: total population of Palestine was 350,000, Jews and Christians comprised Your number of 28 is deceptively low; your number of 10,000 is deceptively high.

          The only number that could be misleading is the 28, as there were additional Israeli casualties in the early 2000’s, and esp. during the second Intifada. When you compare B’Tselem data for 2000+, Palestinians are dying at a rate of roughly 18:1 compared to Israelis. E.g. yes, ~500 Israelis died in the second Intifada, but ~5,000 Palestinians died in the same period. And that was the closest the kill ratio ever got to 1:1. Not kidding.

          http://www.btselem.org/

          >Otherwise, what solution do you propose? Hamas and other groups, clearly do not value Palestinian lives,

          There’s only one side killing Palestinians, and it’s not Hamas, sorry. The “stop hitting yourself” argument doesn’t cut it.

          >and are willing to trade those lives for publicity on the international stage.

          You are apparently ignorant of what is actually happening in Gaza.

          http://timeswarp.org/2014/09/17/whats-left-in-gaza-dont-ask-dont-tell/

          http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/09/hamas-rocket-launches-dont-explain-israels-gaza-destruction/

          >Israel is aware of this, has every incentive to limit civilian casualties, and in fact, when analyzed, limits civilian casualties far better than, for instance, the US or UK.

          Lies on all counts. Every bit of evidence we have suggests that Israel is attacking important infrastructure in Gaza. Their policy of ‘knocking’ with smaller explosives prior to demolishing buildings should be enough to tell you that they’re not going after Hamas; if you were trying to kill a soldier, would you want him before taking out his hiding place? Or would you warn him, and give him time to collect his things and flee? Of course not. Israel is simply trying to destroy as much of Gaza as possible.

          >Or should the Jewish people sit back, fail to defend themselves against an enemy that has declared that there is no solution but the destruction of Israel,

          (Israel being a country founded upon the corpses and demolished homes of Palestinians.)

          >and accept the prospct of their own slaughter, in a century, where they have been faced with the prospect of extinction? Is that what you’re suggesting?

          One holocaust doesn’t justify another, hombre. They’re fighting for their homeland. You’re saying that Palestinians don’t have a right to their homeland, and that Jews do. It’s true. A 2,000 year-old religious text says they have a right to the land. That’s the only claim they have, though. And what they’re doing with that text as ‘justification’ is…morally abhorrent.

          I’ll run you through the modern history.

          In 1947, a region called Mandatory Palestine existed. As you can read above from my demographics breakdown, it was primarily Muslim, with Jewish and Christian minorities.

          In 1948, the region was divided. The geographic division did not make sense; Jews and Arabs were distributed throughout the entire region, but just over 50% of the country was designated as ‘Jewish.’ Supposedly, peoples of both religious groups were supposed to siply pick up and move to their respective areas regardless of property owned, etc. For the Jews, this meant that their land ownership in the region increased by ~400%. For Arabs, this would mean that ~50% of the existing 1.2+million Arabs would be displaced, ultimately by force.

          This is obviously ‘wrong.’ There is no way to justify the forced disenfranchisement of 600,000 people in order to make way for half as many people — out of the homeland of the displaced 600,000.

          The situation has since evolved. Millions of people on both sides now live in the region, and neither side can simply disappear. It’s important to remember the history, though, and to realize that Israel’s only legitimate claim to Palestine stems from a colonialist international resolution in which the people of Palestine were both overlooked and irreparably wronged.

          I think another important disconnect in your argument is that you don’t understand how unusual Israel’s actions are. It’s fairly rare in history to see a group of people not only politically take over an area of land, but also try to forcibly expel or kill *all* of its prior inhabitants.

          The only analogous situation in the US is re. Native Americans, and when you run the numbers today, they’re substantially better off than Palestinians. Currently, ~300 million people live in the US. ~2.9 million of which are Native American.

          The current Navajo Nation Reservation (just the one reservation, but it’s the biggest single one) is ~2.5 times the size of Mandatory Palestine (~10,400 square miles versus 27,425 square miles); if every currently living Native American lived in that reservation alone, they would each have just over 6 acres to themselves.

          If we sum all of the reservations, the total area is 112,637 square miles, or around eleven times the area of Mandatory Palestine. This gives us an average of 25 acres per Native American in reservation lands.

          And while that may not make up for history, 25 acres is something.

          http://www.marlinowners.com/…/74182-25-acres-good…

          The size of Palestine as it exists today is debatable (e.g. as is habitable by Palestinians) , but it is currently approximately 1,000-1,200 square miles. There are currently 4.4 million Palestinians still residing in Palestine, which gives us 0.16 acres per Palestinian.

          But that’s not really a fair comparison, as around half of all Palestinians have fled their homeland (another 4 million or so), whereas nearly all Native Americans still reside in the US. In any case, I think we can both agree that while the US did royally screw over Native Americans ~two hundred years ago, the land allotted them even today is not insignificant.

          So, even the worst ~recent historical analogue resulted in people being treated significantly better than Israel is treating Palestinians.

          • Dan Spitzer

            Let’s see: by your own calculation the number of Palestinians has grown from 600,000 at the start of the 20th century to a figure today of about 8-9 million. And then you and your Pali pals rap the Zionists for “genocide.” Actually, what we have with the Palestinians multiplying in such numbers is more like failure to responsibly use birth control…

          • AnOski

            Dan — you apparently have the same problem with understanding the word “genocide” as your alter-ego Arafat. Go figure.

            gen·o·cide
            ˈjenəˌsīd/
            noun
            the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

            E.g. the murder of the 2,000 to 3,000 Palestinians killed in the past ~month or so could be accurately described as genocide.

            Around 100,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel since 1947, but the statistics have become significantly more skewed in recent years.

            http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5

            The number of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths was historically closer to 4:1, but has risen in recent years to approximately 20:1.

            Bringing total population into the picture is a straw man argument. You might as well argue against the existence of any number of genocides or holocausts because they didn’t cross an arbitrary line of “x% of the total population killed.”

          • 1kenthomas

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide says:

            Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group via the (a) Killing of members of the group; {…}

            (Evidently you googled and took the first available definition; how lazy!)

            The death of a few thousands in a population of millions is simply not “genocide” by any reasonable definition (even if we were to grant that there was a Palestinian “people,” which is hardly certain).

            Asserting that genocide is occurring is simply anti-Semitic propaganda, and should be dealt with as such.

          • AnOski

            Really, Ken? You’re going to call me out for taking one definition over another? Well, let’s read *the latter part of the paragraph you quoted.*

            Where genocide is defined as…”any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racialor religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

            In other words, Israel’s specific targeting of ethnic Arabs in Palestine. The determinant isn’t whether the number killed it’s a significant portion of the total — hence it could be considered genocide if, say, Christians were wiped out in a given country. Doing so wouldn’t affect the global population in any major way, but it would still be considered genocide. Targeted killing of a large number of people based upon nationality, ethnicity, etc.

            You should finish reading the things you quote.

          • 1kenthomas

            >You should finish reading the things you quote.

            Really, “Oski?” It’s called a subordinate clause. We expect people who make it to Rhetoric 10, to know what a subordinate clause does. (For any reader who needs clarification: if you don’t meet the criteria of the superior clause, then the subordinate conditions do not matter).

            Israel has not “targeted” or otherwise a significant portion of what you call the “Arab population” in Palestine. Your argument fails on this.

          • Mel Content

            In other words, Israel’s specific targeting of ethnic Arabs in Palestine.

            Israel isn’t targeting “ethnic Arabs”, you bloviating dimwit. The IDF is targeting known locations where rocket and mortar attacked are being launched against Israeli cities by Hamas fighters. The use of such locations makes them legitimate military targets for the IDF. Now if Palestinian civilians are being killed in such attacks (despite the warnings that the IDF makes as a regular policy to alert civilians to let them get out of the way), why is that? Either they are there voluntarily or involuntarily – which one is it?

          • AnOski

            >Israel isn’t targeting “ethnic Arabs”, you bloviating dimwit.

            They’re targeting civilians in the Palestinian territories. But not the illegal Jewish settlements, just the “ethnic Arabs.”

            >The IDF is targeting known locations where rocket and mortar attacked are being launched against Israeli cities by Hamas fighters.

            Some of their targets include those locations. Most of their targets are purely civilian, though, and even per IDF information, they have no relation to tunnels or anything else:

            http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/27/world/middleeast/assessing-the-damage-and-destruction-in-gaza.html

            http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2014_30/585976/pc-140726-gaza-truce-mn-915_066693e23f6adda031c49419d79f9dab.jpg

            >The use of such locations makes themlegitimate military targets for the IDF.

            I’ve already given you evidence from Amnesty International and the UN that Palestinians are not using civilians as human shields.

            So you’re on the hook to explain the 2,000-3,000 civilian casualties.

            >Now if Palestinian civilians are being killed in such attacks (despite the warnings that the IDF makes as a regular policy to alert civilians to let them get out of the way), why is that? Either they are there voluntarily or involuntarily – which one is it?

            It’s hard to escape a 500 lb bomb when you have no reason to expect an attack and less than a minute to get out of your house.

            This family was supposedly killed because they had an elderly family member they didn’t want to leave to be blown to pieces. They were trying to get her out. Oh, and there were no rockets or otherwise suspicious actions happening nearby.

            Just as in 90+% of the cases of Israeli attacks.

            Your lies don’t hold up to the evidence, Mel. At least, not the evidence from anyone other than the IDF. Impartial organizations like Amnesty International and the UN have no reason to lie. The IDF does.

          • Mel Content

            They’re targeting civilians in the Palestinian territories.

            Oh, bullsh!t. They are targeting locations used for launching Qassam rockets against Israeli citizens. You’re playing this game of ignoring what the Israelis are targeting, and WHY they are targeting them, because acknowledging such would be an admission that the Palestinians are the ones who initiated this last round of fighting, which apparently doesn’t fit your Pallies-are-poor-innocent-victims party line.

          • AnOski

            As I have cited elsewhere extensively, Amnesty International and the UN disagree. Your baseless lies are getting stale.

          • 1kenthomas

            http://blog.joeol.com/2014/08/10/analysis-of-gaza-casualties-suggests-israeli-attacks-not-indiscriminate/

            Otherwise, your “history lesson” (which is nothing but biased propaganda) would be an E (failing) at Williams, where there are still some standards. For most of the period of which you write, there was no “Palestine,” and of course, it was the Arab leaders who cleared the territory of its population.

            Perhaps your propaganda would pass muster with some ultra-left tenured radical at Berkeley, who likes to revise history…

          • AnOski

            TIL accurate demographic figures are “biased propaganda.”

            I love how your biased blog post was made ~in response to the BBC article addressing the same topic, which came to the conclusion that *at most* ~200 of the ~2,000 people killed by August 10th were civilians.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

            To say nothing of reports by other reputable sources (as opposed to pro-Israeli blogs):

            http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-attack-un-school-gaza-potential-war-crime-must-be-investigated-2014-07-30

          • 1kenthomas

            Those figures as “biased propaganda?” Can you argue with the numbers? Or have you been brainwashed that all number, reason, and analysis are artifacts of the white male partriarchy?

            Amnesty is an advocacy organization. Nothing about their point-of-view is independent.

            And actually, Joel first published his analysis before August 5th, long before Time, BBC, The Guardian (hardly a right-wing rag), and many others, published similar data and analysis.

            Otherwise, your “population demographics” are bunk. Head over to McCone and find someone who knows what they’re doing.

          • AnOski

            >Those figures as “biased propaganda?” Can you argue with the numbers?

            I stand by those demographic figures, which were taken from textbooks and other sources, including Rediscovering Palestine, by Beshara Doumani and others.

            >Or have you been brainwashed that all number, reason, and analysis are artifacts of the white male partriarchy?

            Sorry, I don’t buy into most sociological rhetoric.

            >Amnesty is an advocacy organization. Nothing about their point-of-view is independent.

            So you’re saying a humanitarian non-profit is biased against Israel? Lol.

            >And actually, Joel first published his analysis before August 5th, long before Time, BBC, The Guardian (hardly a right-wing rag), and many others, published similar data and analysis.

            Oh, well he reached ridiculous conclusions with even less available information then. Good to know he was posting biased information *first.*

            >Otherwise, your “population demographics” are bunk. Head over to McCone and find someone who knows what they’re doing.

            Ah, haven’t heard that name in a while. You’re still a student? Good for you. Take some courses on the Middle East while you’re there. Maybe Doumani’s, if he’s still offering it.

          • Mel Content

            I stand by those demographic figures, which were taken from textbooks
            and other sources, including Rediscovering Palestine, by Beshara Doumani
            and others.

            You stand by figures provided by people who are interested in peddling the same propaganda as you are. What s surprise…

          • AnOski

            LOL. So you’re willing to write off an entire book without glancing at it?

            >Drawing on previously unused primary sources, this book paints an intimate and vivid portrait of Palestinian society on the eve of modernity. Through the voices of merchants, peasants, and Ottoman officials, Beshara Doumani offers a major revision of standard interpretations of Ottoman history by investigating the ways in which urban-rural dynamics in a provincial setting appropriated and gave meaning to the larger forces of Ottoman rule and European economic expansion. He traces the relationship between culture, politics, and economic change by looking at how merchant families constructed trade networks and cultivated political power, and by showing how peasants defined their identity and formulated their notions of justice and political authority.

            >Original and accessible, this study challenges nationalist constructions of history and provides a context for understanding the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It is also the first comprehensive work on the Nablus region, Palestine’s trade, manufacturing, and agricultural heartland, and a bastion of local autonomy. Doumani rediscovers Palestine by writing the inhabitants of this ancient land into history.

            It’s not even a political or remotely politicized text. He’s a historian, nothing more. And you’re coming across as being willfully ignorant.

    • Dan Spitzer

      All anyone needs to know about those poor, poor Palestinians is that they democratically elected Hamas to govern all of the Palestinian territories and after the war in Gaza, every poll conducted by Arabs and Western researchers alike shows that Hamas is overwhelmingly the most popular political party amongst all Palestinians.
      What’s wrong with that? Well for starters, the Hamas Charter calls for the killings not just of all Israeli Jews but Jews everywhere in the world. So if you support the Palestinians, then by definition you also advocate Jewish genocide.
      Some Islamofascist ideological or religious slugs, and their followers, want to boycott academics from Israel, a genuine democracy whose researchers have brought to the world medicines which might someday save your life or someone you love. Or academics who have greatly expanded technological and agrarian innovation which has greatly bettered mankind.
      What pray-tell have the Palestinians, who have benefited from millions of dollars in US aid (along with monies channeled through the UN) brought to the world? Certainly suppression of women-Hamas advocates restricting the role of Palestinian women even further via continued implementation of Sharia Law. Suppression of gays. Suppression of journalism and free expression.
      In sum, if there is anyone who should be boycotted, it are the Palestinian territories and Islamic societies who engage in gender apartheid and support Jewish genocide…

      • Mel Content

        Well for starters, the Hamas Charter calls for the killings not just of
        all Israeli Jews but Jews everywhere in the world. So if you support the
        Palestinians, then by definition you also advocate Jewish genocide.

        True, but the idiot progressive Berkeley sheeple ignore inconvenient little factoids like that because they don’t fit into their Palestinians-as-victims agenda. They have made up their minds about the subject already, and merely pick and choose the facts that best go with their story…

        • AnOski

          >True, but the idiot progressive Berkeley sheeple ignore inconvenient little factoids like that because they don’t fit into their Palestinians-as-victims agenda.

          Not at all. We look at the facts:

          http://www.btselem.org/statistics

          http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4756436/IP_conflict_deaths_total.png

          And the history of the region. See my other comments for a thorough accounting of ~1850 – 1947.

          It’s one thing to actually take the time to understand the situation. It’s another to spew pro-Israeli rubbish because you’re too blinded by your personal religious affiliations to address the situation with any semblance of fairness.

          Your’s and Dan’s comments have been overtly racist re. Arabs, and I doubt anything I say will have any impact on those kinds of deep-seated beliefs.

          • Mel Content

            Your’s and Dan’s comments have been overtly racist

            Nothing like playing the race card when you can’t win an argument, Junior. You sound as silly as the BAMN crew…

          • AnOski

            Oh, I thought I was an anti-semite. Bleeding hypocrite.

          • Mel Content

            Oh, I thought I was an anti-semite for criticizing the ethnic cleansing of a nation.

            There’s no “ethnic cleansing” going on, you blithering fool. What’s happening is that Hamas and other terrorist groups are using schools, hospitals, and apartment building as fire bases from which to launch rockets and mortars at Israeli cities, and the Israelis, as to be expected are targeting those fire bases, which in fact is perfectly legal under the Geneva Conventions. You keep leaving out this convenient fact about rockets being fired because otherwise it would be a lot harder for you to peddle your one-sided propaganda of Israel being the aggressor.

          • AnOski

            >There’s no “ethnic cleansing” going on, you blithering fool.

            Well, it depends on if you agree with the UN’s definition of “genocide,” but I would’t exactly be surprised if you were using a different definition to justify Israel’s actions.

            >What’s happening is that Hamas and other terrorist groups are using schools, hospitals, and apartment building as fire bases from which to launch rockets and mortars at Israeli cities,

            Yes and no. I’ve seen two documented instances of empty schools being used to store weapons in the past 14 years per AP, and it was unclear who was responsible. High-ranking Hamas officials denounced it and said that it wouldn’t happen again, and in no confirmed cases were schools used to launch rockets.

            So using this argument to justify 10,000 dead Palestinians and scores of demolished schools is….a little wrong.

            Hospitals – no. Although the IDF did release extremely misleading videos from 2008/9 to justify the 2014 destruction of a hospital filled with civilians. Oh, and they didn’t get a warning.

            http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25999-israels-video-justifying-destruction-of-a-hospital-was-from-2009

            It’s a similar issue with apartment buildings. If a rocket is launched from open space near a block of apartments, and Israel uses that as justification to drop a 2,000 bomb directly on the residential block…you’re not exactly telling the truth. You’re actually lying to justify killing scores of people on an individual basis.

            Israel has destroyed countless schools, hospitals, and hundreds of residential dwellings, killing ~10,000 innocent civilians over the past 14 years to get at these people who have managed to kill ~30 Israelis in the same amount of time.

            >and the Israelis, as to be expected are targeting those fire bases, which in fact is perfectly legal under the Geneva Conventions.

            Did a supporter of Israel just bring up the Geneva Conventions? You must be very bad at discussing politics, or have a *very* short memory.

            Per Wikipedia:

            “In the past, the Supreme Court has argued that the Geneva Convention insofar it is not supported by domestic legislation “does not bind this Court, its enforcement being a matter for the states which are parties to the Convention”. They ruled that “Conventional international law does not become part of Israeli law through automatic incorporation, but only if it is adopted or combined with Israeli law by enactment of primary or subsidiary legislation from which it derives its force”. However, in the same decision the Court ruled that the Fourth Hague Convention rules governing belligerent occupation did apply, since those were recognized as customary international law.[68]

            [Israel is above the Geneva Conventions.]

            “In 2004, the International Court of Justice issued an advisory opinion stating that the barrier violates international law.[39] It claimed that “Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall”.[40] However, Israel government derived its justification for constructing this barrier with Prime Minister Ehud Barak stating that it is “essential to the Palestinian nation in order to foster its national identity and independence without being dependent on the State of Israel”.[41] The Israeli Supreme Court, sitting as the High Court of Justice, stated that Israel has been holding the areas of Judea and Samaria in belligerent occupation, since 1967. The court also held that the normative provisions of public international law regarding belligerent occupation are applicable. The Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949 were both cited.[7]”

            [Israel is above the International Court of Justice.]

            “The Judea and Samaria areas are held by the State of Israel in belligerent occupation. The long arm of the state in the area is the military commander. He is not the sovereign in the territory held in belligerent occupation (see The Beit Sourik Case, at p. 832). His power is granted him by public international law regarding belligerent occupation. The legal meaning of this view is twofold: first, Israeli law does not apply in these areas. They have not been “annexed” to Israel. Second, the legal regime which applies in these areas is determined by public international law regarding belligerent occupation (see HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al. (yet unpublished, paragraph 3 of the opinion of the Court; hereinafter – The Gaza Coast Regional Council Case). In the center of this public international law stand the Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague, 18 October 1907 (hereinafter – The Hague Regulations). These regulations are a reflection of customary international law. The law of belligerent occupation is also laid out in IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949 (hereinafter – the Fourth Geneva Convention).”

            [Israel is above the International Court of Justice.]

            Etc., etc.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories#International_law_violations

            Etc., etc.

            In short, Israel doesn’t give a crap about international law or the Geneva Conventions as they apply to (and would protect) Palestinians.

            Flechette shells: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza

            White phosphorous: http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1105960/thumbs/o-ISRAEL-WHITE-PHOSPHOROUS-facebook.jpg

            And countless other indiscriminate weapons banned by international agreements and conventions.

            >You keep leaving out this convenient fact about rockets being fired because otherwise it would be a lot harder for you to peddle your one-sided propaganda of Israel being the aggressor.

            Rockets? They’ve killed 30 people in the last 15 years. Nothing left out. You’re holding that up as somehow justifying 10,000 dead innocents, etc., etc.

            It’s insane. You’re insane.

      • AnOski

        >All anyone needs to know about those poor, poor Palestinians is that they democratically elected Hamas to govern all of the Palestinian territories and after the war in Gaza, every poll conducted by Arabs and Western researchers alike shows that Hamas is overwhelmingly the most popular political party amongst all Palestinians. What’s wrong with that?

        Nothing. After 70 years of being massacred at a rate of 15 Palestinians to one Israeli, they finally said ‘screw peace, we want to try to fight back.’

        >Well for starters, the Hamas Charter calls for the killings not just of all Israeli Jews but Jews everywhere in the world. So if you support the Palestinians, then by definition you also advocate Jewish genocide.

        You might as well look at Israel’s actions in Palestine. The justification for the recent offensive in Palestine were the missiles being launched into Israel. Missiles which have killed exactly 28 Israelis since the first launches in 2000. The recent offensive killed between 2,000 and 3,000 people, and injured an estimated 40,000.

        So, one Jewish life is worth ~a hundred innocent Arabs’ lives. Sounds like genocide to me.

        >Some Islamofascist ideological or religious slugs, and their followers, want to boycott academics from Israel, a genuine democracy whose researchers have brought to the world medicines which might someday save your life or someone you love.

        The insinuation being, of course, that Palestinians couldn’t bring this kind of thing to the world? Oh, that’s right.

        http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=721358

        They can’t. Because while you say the US shouldn’t put an educational embargo on Israel, you’re fine with turning a blind eye to Israel’s choice to destroy scores of Palestinian schools, and other necessary infrastructure in Palestinian territories.

        http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/09/hamas-rocket-launches-dont-explain-israels-gaza-destruction/

        http://timeswarp.org/2014/09/17/whats-left-in-gaza-dont-ask-dont-tell/

        >Or academics who have greatly expanded technological and agrarian innovation which has greatly bettered mankind.

        Yep. Amazing what you can do within the confines of a well-protected border, when your university isn’t bombed to rubble every five or ten years.

        >What pray-tell have the Palestinians, who have benefited from millions of dollars in US aid (along with monies channeled through the UN) brought to the world?

        Wow. I don’t even know what to say to this overt racism. You’re assuming that ~12 million people across the globe aren’t doing anything good for society because they’re “Palestinian.”

        Sounds like you’re demonizing a group of people to justify killing them. Sound familiar, Dan? Any chance you were alive in 1938?

        >Certainly suppression of women-Hamas advocates restricting the role of Palestinian women even further via continued implementation of Sharia Law.

        Oh, please. Palestine is one of the more liberal Arab countries. You could demonize the US by bringing up polygamist Mormons, the child abuse of the Amish, and other crazy Christian sects, but when you’re really alluding to extremist groups that exist in any strength thousands of miles away, it’s just misdirection.

        >Suppression of gays. Suppression of journalism and free expression.

        Suppression of millions of people who just don’t want to leave their homes.

        >In sum, if there is anyone who should be boycotted, it are the Palestinian territories and Islamic societies who engage in gender apartheid and support Jewish genocide…

        Gender apartheid? Really? You’re going to try to defend actual apartheid with “gender apartheid?” Wow. FYI, Dan, the Jewish genocide ended with World War 2. The only genocide currently ongoing in Palestine is that of the Palestinians, at the hands of Israel.

        • Dan Spitzer

          More Muslims butcher one another weekly in various “conflicts” today in the Islamic world than one could find counting Palestinian casualties during the entirely of a century of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. And when it comes to Israel, all of those wars were initiated by the Palestinians and their Arab allies. Hamas shooting missiles into Israel is just the latest example.
          AnOski, if someone was firing missiles at you, would you just sit on your hands and say “kill me and my people?” Or would you defend yourselves. AnOski is asking for the bullshit of “proportionality” with the usual nonsensical call is for the Israelis to not defend themselves until enough of their own people have been killed. No nation on earth would find that acceptable.
          The most important factor which you and your pro-Palestinian minion fail to address: the Palestinians under Arafat’s Fatah and today under the most popular of all Palestinian political parties, Hamas, call for the murder of Israeli Jews and Jews everywhere. They openly state that they would commit genocide vs Jews whenever and wherever they can. Jewish political and religious leaders NEVER call for this. In point of fact, if the Israelis wished to rid the world of Palestinians, they have the military means to carpet bomb both the West Bank and Gaza if they so wished. And you know it.
          For reasons of being so focused upon Jewish genocide, the Palestinians have brought little to the world other than the child-fitting suicide bomb vests and horrific honor murder visited upon daughters who are believed to transgressed the will of their fathers.That and other horrific treatment meted out to females & gays is gender apartheid. To compare Arab treatment of women to a few crazy Christian sects is a truly bad joke of an analogy.
          FINALLY BUT CERTAINLY FOREMOST, ANOASKI, NEITHER YOU NOR YOUR FELLOW PRO-PALESTINIANS EVER CRITICIZE THE VILEST CRIME ONE GROUP OF HUMAN BEINGS COULD ADVOCATE, IN THIS CASE JEWISH GENOCIDE. Believe me, if there had been a call for the murder of all blacks, or Arabs, or Hispanics, you would likely condemn this. But somehow, the open advocacy of Jewish genocide is OK by you. Here’s the question, AnOski: do you have the ethics to condemn Palestinian calls for Jewish genocide? Please answer the question…

          • AnOski

            Oooh, you’re good at the straw man arguments. Let’s go.

            >More Muslims butcher one another weekly in various “conflicts” today in the Islamic world than one could find counting Palestinian casualties during the entirely of a century of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

            Arabs are Arabs, and they’re dying elsewhere, so let’s ignore the thousands that Israel is murdering.

            Good point, Dan.

            >And when it comes to Israel, all of those wars were initiated by the Palestinians and their Arab allies.

            Nope. Here’s a history crash course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ&t=0m1s

            >Hamas shooting missiles into Israel is just the latest example.

            Of a people trying desperately to reclaim their homeland. What idiots.

            >AnOski, if someone was firing missiles at you, would you just sit on your hands and say “kill me and my people?” Or would you defend yourselves.

            Oh, please. Back to the history books.

            Let’s add this to the situation.

            Early 19th century: total population of Palestine was 350,000, Jews and Christians comprised AnOski is asking for the bullshit of “proportionality” with the usual nonsensical call is for the Israelis to not defend themselves until enough of their own people have been killed.

            Bullshit of proportionality? At some point, you can’t call it defense. At *some point* it becomes genocide. Israel has crossed that line.

            >The most important factor which you and your pro-Palestinian minion fail to address: the Palestinians under Arafat’s Fatah and today under the most popular of all Palestinian political parties, Hamas, call for the murder of Israeli Jews and Jews everywhere.

            And Israel’s actions suggest that they think similarly about Arabs. Cluster bombs in Lebanon? The wanton killing of unarmed Palestinians in refugee camps countless times over the past 60 years? Massacres like Sabra and Shatillah?

            Please. No such atrocities have been committed against Israel. Israel’s the primary transgressor in the region, and has been since its inception. Watch the above video.

            >They openly state that they would commit genocide vs Jews whenever and wherever they can. Jewish political and religious leaders NEVER call for this.

            Sure, they just act on similar principles.

            >In point of fact, if the Israelis wished to rid the world of Palestinians, they have the military means to carpet bomb both the West Bank and Gaza if they so wished. And you know it.

            Yep. And that’s pretty much what they do. They restrain themselves to the extent that they can deny their intent of killing civilians, while all the time annexing more Palestinian lands, and still managing to kill them in the thousands.

            >For reasons of being so focused upon Jewish genocide, the Palestinians have brought little to the world other than the child-fitting suicide bomb vests and horrific honor murder visited upon daughters who are believed to transgressed the will of their fathers.

            Wow. Such racism. I don’t know what I can say to this. Numbers, maybe.

            There are an estimated 11,000,000 Palestinians in Palestine and abroad. Since their inception in the 1980s, there have been, in total, approximately 130 suicide attacks on Israel, which have killed ~600 people.

            Since 1980, Israel has killed beween 15,000 and 17,000 Palestinians.

            It’s one thing to say that a “proportional” argument is crap. It’s another thing to reduce a population of 11,000,000 people to the actions of 130 people — actions that pale in comparison to the atrocities committed by Israel.

            >That and other horrific treatment meted out to females & gays is gender apartheid.

            Oh, please. If you want to talk about how gays and females are treated in orthodox Jewish churches, you’re welcome to bring that topic up. It won’t go well for you.

            >To compare Arab treatment of women to a few crazy Christian sects is a truly bad joke of an analogy.

            Really, why? Though I will again say that orthodox Judaism would be a much better comparison.

            >FINALLY BUT CERTAINLY FOREMOST, ANOASKI, NEITHER YOU NOR YOUR FELLOW PRO-PALESTINIANS EVER CRITICIZE THE VILEST CRIME ONE GROUP OF HUMAN BEINGS COULD ADVOCATE, IN THIS CASE JEWISH GENOCIDE.

            World war two is long gone, Dan. Israel’s not at risk from Palestine or the Palestinians. Those rockets are the best weapons the Palestinians have. There’s a reason those rockets have only killed 28 people since 2000: Palestinians don’t have the means to threaten Israel any more than Iran does.

            >Believe me, if there had been a call for the murder of all blacks, or Arabs, or Hispanics, you would likely condemn this. But somehow, the open advocacy of Jewish genocide is OK by you.

            I can empathize with a people who have been oppressed and trying to reclaim their homes for 60 years. My family is Jewish. I understand what it is like to try to resist insurmountable odds, lose many of one’s friends and families, and still wish to survive and return home. The fact that their credo contains anti-semitic statements does not surprise me. Israel has earned that hatred over the last six decades. That is the answer to your question.

        • Mel Content

          You might as well look at Israel’s actions in Palestine. The justification for the recent offensive in Palestine were the missiles being launched into Israel. Missiles which have killed exactly 28 Israelis since the first launches in 2000. The recent offensive killed between 2,000 and 3,000 people, and injured an estimated 40,000.

          I said it once, and will say it again: Maybe the Palestinian people of the Gaza Strip ought to think about who they elect to represent them next time, and not choose a known terrorist organization intent on using them as hostages and human shields when they launch rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians…

          • AnOski

            >I said it once, and will say it again: Maybe the Palestinian people of the Gaza Strip ought to think about who they elect to represent them next time, and not choose a known terrorist organization intent on using them as hostages and human shields

            For all this talk about human shields, the only actually documented cases have occurred at the hands of Israeli soldiers.

            Here’s some pretty clear photographic evidence for you:

            http://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-soldiers-use-two-palestinian-minors-human-shields/3156

            http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/video-israeli-soldiers-use-handcuffed-palestinian-teen-human-shield-they-fire

            – But let’s not stop there. Both the UN and Amnesty International refute your claims:

            http://harpers.org/blog/2009/10/six-questions-for-desmond-travers-on-the-goldstone-report/

            https://web.archive.org/web/20090705234403/http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jc0DHbDsRG83m4stW9JdpHz3hxSw

            http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/jeremy-bowens-gaza-notebook-i-saw-no-evidence-hamas-using-palestinians-human

            http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/017/2014/en/5b79b682-8d41-4751-9cbc-a0465f6433c3/mde150172014en.html

            You’re simply repeating the IDF’s unsubstantiated claims, which have been refuted by countless correspondents and aid workers with various groups.

            >when they launch rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians…

            Which have killed three people since the start of the most recent Israeli offensive, which simultaneously killed at least 2,000 Palestinian civilians.

          • Mel Content

            For all this talk about human shields, the only actually documented cases have occurred at the hands of Israeli soldiers.

            Like a typical pro-Pallie syncophant, you keep on avoiding a crucial fact, which is that Hamas uses non-military buildings such as apartment buildings, schools and hospitals as fire bases for launching military attacks on Israeli cities. Let me ask you this question one more time: Are those Palestinian citizens freely offering those same buildings to Hamas for use in their activities, or are they being forced into it? In addition, they should have figured out by now that hanging around Hamas combatants puts them in danger of being attacked by the IDF, so why would they hang around those same locations knowing that any time now they were going to be targeted?

          • AnOski

            >Like a typical pro-Pallie syncophant, you keep on avoiding a crucial fact, which is that Hamas uses non-military buildings such as apartment buildings, schools and hospitals as fire bases for launching military attacks on Israeli cities.

            On the contrary, the only videos or photographs that I’ve seen of recent rocket attacks have shown them setting up quickly under tents in open areas.

            I’ve already provided you with multiple Amnesty International and UN sources that suggest that what you claim is happening — isn’t.

            So you keep saying it, and you have nothing to back it up. I have evidence to the contrary. And you keep repeating it.

            >Let me ask you this question one more time: Are those Palestinian citizens freely offering those same buildings to Hamas for use in their activities, or are they being forced into it?

            Simply put, the number of buildings destroyed in Israel’s campaign is higher than the number of rockets launched from Gaza since 2009.

            The buildings they’ve been destroying *can’t* have been the source of rockets, etc. It’s impossible. What you claim is literally impossible.

            >In addition, they should have figured out by now that hanging around Hamas combatants puts them in danger of being attacked by the IDF, so why would they hang around those same locations knowing that any time now they were going to be targeted?

            Lies, according to Amnesty International and the UN. Israel is targeting civilian houses and civilians unrelated to Hamas actions.

          • Mel Content

            On the contrary, the only videos or photographs that I’ve seen of recent
            rocket attacks have shown them setting up quickly under tents in open
            areas.

            Hamas isn’t shooting rockets from under tents in the open, you fruitcake. You’re making up nonsense.

          • AnOski

            Yeah, Hamas should have more out “in the open” attacks.

            http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f12_1405582637&comments=1

            You’re so smart. You get a sticker.