H-1B visa reform assists international students, boosts skilled American workforce

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Hannah Cooper/Staff

Immigrants wishing to pursue the American dream have been dealt a great amount of uncertainty after the actions taken by the Trump administration. Students on F-1 visas, who wish to stay on and make the United States their home, are a section of aliens who have not had their fears addressed.

As a student who has repeatedly tried and failed to secure a coveted H1-B visa, I can say that the system is downright unfair to students and detrimental to the skilled American workforce. The system must be reformed in order to make the U.S an attractive destination for students pursuing their career objectives and safeguard the interests of the American middle class.

There are currently more than 1 million international students in the country pursuing different levels of education. These students chose to move to the United States to attend some of the best institutions for higher learning and research in the world. After graduation, prospects available to graduates, especially in STEM, make it lucrative to find jobs and work.

Since the F-1 student visa is a nonimmigrant visa, students wishing to stay in the U.S must transfer their legal immigration status to an immigrant visa categories. While this system sounds reasonable, it forces students to apply for one of the H1-B temporary worker visas. The H1-B visa is meant to allow employers in the country to hire highly skilled professionals to meet needs that cannot be met by the local talent pool. The number of visas allocated yearly is capped at 65,000 with an additional 20,000 for students holding a master’s degree from a U.S. institution.

Outsourcing firms misuse this system by flooding the system with visa petitions. These firms bring workers from abroad into the country on relatively low salaries with respect to the job functions they perform. Every year a lottery is forced for the allocation of the H1-B visas that gives no preference to local firms trying to hire specific skilled talent. U.S. firms seeking to employ a skilled student or a specific resource from abroad find it extremely hard to do so. As a student with a bachelor’s degree, my chances of getting a visa in the last iteration of this lottery were slim to none, with 236,000 applications.

This abuse of the system also kills competitiveness and adversely impacts skilled American workers who find themselves losing their jobs, largely because companies find it very cost effective to just replace their own workers with contracted, low-wage foreign workers. Outsourcing firms apply for visas in bulk, hoping to break the lottery so that a certain percent of their applicants win, unlike local firms that specifically want to sponsor workers for their own attributes.

A Silicon Valley firm trying to hire a specific expert from abroad has a very low chance of being able to actually secure a work visa, whereas an outsourcing firm selects a large number of generic employees for sponsorship, so that a certain percent will be selected because of the way the lottery works, and those selected are sent here to the United States to serve as contractors.

As an international student that graduated from the electrical engineering and computer science program at UC Berkeley and currently works in payment security, I have seen the misuse of the system firsthand. Several of my talented friends have had to relocate abroad because they have been unable to win the lottery. This extremely cruel scenario forces them to uproot their entire lives and start over again, despite having strong cultural ties to the U.S and paying taxes.

From an employer’s viewpoint, this also means losing a valuable resource trained to perform a specific job. It reduces the lucrativeness of hiring international students because it is more likely that they will be lost or will need to be transferred to a foreign office.  

The “Highly Skilled Integrity and Fairness Act 2017” proposed by Rep. Lofgren specifically aims to curb the H1-B visa abuse by outsourcing and to raise the wage requirements for H1-B-dependent firms. This would allow U.S. firms to hire skilled foreign workers without having to play the lottery to win. The skilled American workforce would not be unfairly priced out of competitiveness in the job market.

It removes the per-country quota on immigrant visas that would streamline the merit-based process for allowing legal immigration into the country. The higher wage requirements for the outsourcing firms would end their gaming of the system. International students would benefit because it makes it more lucrative for employers to hire them and makes it easier for them to achieve their goal of the American dream.

This April will be my third and final attempt at obtaining an H1-B visa and I fear it will be too late for me. Barring a tremendous stroke of luck, I will be forced to relocate and start my life from scratch. I wish for system wide reform so that others do not have to suffer the same agony that my peers and I have had to go through.

I hope that the elected representatives of this country work in the best interests of their people and country in order to pass this legislation. The U.S risks losing its attractiveness to international students, resulting in the loss of highly prized talent that would seek to go elsewhere. Had I known how the system is set up to hurt international students, I would have certainly pursued my education elsewhere.

The competitiveness of American firms and the livelihood of the skilled middle class is at stake here. I feel that this is an issue that both conservatives and liberals have a common interest in resolving. The abuse of the H1-B system has gone on for too long and needs to be fixed.  

Manish Raje is a UC Berkeley alumnus. Contact the opinion desk at opinion@dailycal.org or follow us on Twitter @dailycalopinion.

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  • Anshuman Arun

    Do you know the meaning of “incorrect” ? What else do you want people on H1Bs to do ? I think they need to fulfill the criteria by law. So this is not how nations work?

    • John80224

      I expect many to not remain. I expect some to do so. Would a better system for deciding who stays help? Sure. Should we allow more to stay? Under the right conditions, perhaps.

      It’s a bit like relationships. I’ve been maddeningly infatuated with women before. But my desire, no matter how much I attempted to fit the other’s wants, did not guarantee that I was due the outcome I wished. Take your shot. Do what you can to improve it. But don’t expect that it all be based on what you want.

      • Anshuman Arun

        So what should be a “better system for deciding who stays […]” ?

        • John80224

          I’ll admit right off that 1) I don’t have all the answers and 2) there will be fraud or perversion of the intent with most any system.

          More of what I see are fixes to the holes and addressing needs in light of the nation, not the individual companies. Most of it centers around returning the system to being complementary vs. parasitic.

          Set real prevailing wages – very difficult to maintain
          Set “prevailing age” – companies must cease illegal discrimination, age being one common factor in this debate
          Remove loopholes – hiring an imported temp worker requires real proof a suitable domestic candidate was not available
          Reporting – demographics of companies receiving visas must report their company demographics
          Enforcement – there is little mechanism to spur a legitimate investigation and little consequence at risk

          The more amorphous concepts are to include merit principle and a measure of need. Closer watch of fields being overrun as IT has been in some ways is another useful point.

          • Anshuman Arun

            That’s exactly what this article has argued for. This article is against the abuse of H1B program by foreign firms and I 100% support what has been written here.

  • Tim Langan

    H-1B destroys the middle class. The interesting thing is, Democrats and Left suppose to support American Workforce and middle class. But they listened the Wall Street. Donald Trump emerged from this vacuum. Democrats and LEFT ignored regular Americans. West Bengal Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee on Thursday said “it is the duty of the Indian government to protect the interests of Indian IT companies and IT professionals abroad. News about H-1B visas is concerning. We must protect our IT companies and professionals and give them full support.”……. Indian politicians are DOING their job. They are doing everything to protect 150 billion dollars industry. In USA, Disneyland fired hundreds of American employees and replaced them with H-1Bs. An unemployed Disneyland employee complains about H1B replacement… US government has one answer : “I do not care”. ( Obama Administration ).

  • jim hoch

    Educated ambitious young people are much more valuable than the average illegal immigrant. Welcome to the US>

    • John80224

      That’s an anything but nuanced understanding of the issue and lumps in an entirely different debate that is in no way an either or situation.

      • jim hoch

        Thank you for showing me what a relevant comment looks like.

        • John80224

          I assume that to be sarcastic. Fair enough, I was less than detailed and not especially welcoming in my response.

          First off, your comment seemed to lead to the all too common misconception that there’s some kind of trade-off, i.e. that we have to chose just one battle to fight or pick between one form of immigration or another. The issues and tactics in dealing with them are rather different between the two once you get beyond the rather base levels of this being about the concepts of immigration and jobs.

          The H-1B and many related skilled worker programs have some very legitimate value. But the conditions under which the workers arrive can wildly vary their impacts on the nation and the workforce. In its current state, the H-1B is used foremost to displace domestic workers from their jobs or overlook them for consideration. The visa is most commonly used by offshoring companies and second-most by technology companies that perpetuate the myth that only youth can produce technology and innovation.

          Changing the skill-based visas to ensure they are being brought to complement the workforce vs. circumvent it would go a long way to then making the skilled workers a more definitive win to the US.

          • Anshuman Arun

            Can’t agree more!

      • Anshuman Arun

        ROFL on Jim Hoch’s comments! Rightly said by you!

  • CodeMan

    Indian outsourcers like TaTa, Wipro and similar companies have long practiced a PARASITIC business model and the US may have just had enough of it to finally STOP the abuse.

    Nearly 4 million. That’s the size of the workforce dedicated to a business that’s thrived for the past three decades on a growth model of labor arbitrage. In the process, it’s matured into a industry worth almost $150 billion. The multi-billion dollar question today is, where does it go from here, as it comes head to head with a series of challenges.

    Just remember for every 100 foreign computer scientists working in the U.S., between 33 and 61 American workers were fired/displaced.

    • Anshuman Arun

      What you said about TCS, Wipro and Infosys is very true. We need to stop this abuse.

  • ShadrachSmith

    Trump likes Americans more than immigrants. Plan accordingly.

  • n6532l

    The H-1B is a masterpiece of duplicity. Rep. Lofgren’s bill continues that duplicity. Her bill will not raise the wages of H-1Bs. All it does is add additional paperwork if a certain wage is not paid. She is a long time supporter of cheap labor to displaced Americans. Her bill will cause even more Americans to be displaced.

    All the proposed bills change which companies get H-1Bs and which foreigners get jobs but none actually reduces the number of jobs going to foreigners. Most proposals actually make it worse for skilled Americans.

    • Anshuman Arun

      Trump has already started the process of signing an executive order increasing the minimum H1B wage from 65,000 to 130,000.

      • John80224

        There is no minimum wage on H-1Bs and the minimum loophole to which I think you are speaking is $60K.

  • maraba3

    The bottom line is this: Should we have the notion of America or not? Obama wanted globalism and that in my opinion would wreck America. America needs to make sure all everything is first for Americans, People keep coming here because AMERICANS made it great!! And we have brash H-1B claim rights…

    • Anshuman Arun

      Are you a native American?

      • lspanker

        You DO know our nickname in this country for “Native Americans”, don’t you?

        • Anshuman Arun

          I don’t know what you are talking about.

          • lspanker

            You don’t know what I’m talking about, yet it’s “racist”?

            You’re truly an idiot.

          • Anshuman Arun

            If you had any intelligence, you would have figured out that one post was written before the other one. I later realized what you were alluding to. My mind is not so impure as yours. Your bad language tells me something about your upbringing. Do you reserve this kind of language for people who you “think” are inferior to you ?

        • Anshuman Arun

          That was racist!

      • John80224

        Point?

        I assume what you insinuate is one of the dumbest counterpoints constantly regurgitated in this debate. The United States of America is a nation with a government. That government is recognized in the tradition of the world for millennia as the body which oversees the land and legal definitions. Within those definitions, it defines what citizens are and what rights they are conferred. Those rights do not care whether one was born here, naturalized, nor tracing their lineage back to humanity first crossing the land bridge eons ago. Nor does this debate.

        • Anshuman Arun

          I asked the question in reply to his observation: “…And we have brash H-1B claim rights…” I don’t have any point to make.

  • Kurt VanderKoi

    Hire American Citizens to boost skilled American workforce!

    • Anshuman Arun

      This is best decided by the corporations. They hire the best people from around the world regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, nationality, etc. After all, they want to make money and not lose out to the competition. So this decision is best left to them.

      • n6532l

        They do not. The average H-1B is less skilled than the Average American. They are hired because they are cheap. Each H-1B hired represents approximately $100,000 net savings over what an American would cost.

        • Anshuman Arun

          Hiring of Satya Nadella by Microsoft and Sundar Pichai by Google must be saving a lot of money for Microsoft and Google.

          • lspanker

            And I can tell you this much: for every one of them there’s an arrogant, clueless young person with no real life experience whose opinion of him or herself is much higher than that held by his working peers. Don’t give me this nonsense that all foreign engineers in the US are inherently better than their American peers because they are plenty of warm bodies who are hired because their are cheap, docile and compliant labor. Yes, there are certainly good ones, but plenty of mediocre ones as well.

          • Anshuman Arun

            I never said that all foreign engineers are better that their American peers. It is a figment of your imagination. Can you please quote me on that?

            Yes, there are good and bad people in all races and nationalities.

        • Anshuman Arun

          “Highest earnings by race in the US.” Just copy and paste this phrase in google and it will open your eyes.
          Asian Indians earn the highest amount among all racial groups in the US (whites included) so they certainly aren’t cheap. In fact their median earnings is twice that of the national average. This is made possible by the H1B program. They are not cheap!

          • n6532l

            You are comparing a subset of almost all college graduates to the general population.

            If you are in college you are not acting like it.

          • Anshuman Arun

            All H1Bs have college degrees. The topic of today’s discussion is H1B visas. So what if they are a subset of the general population? We are discussing H1Bs.. aren’t we ?

            And most Asian Indians came to America on H1B visas. This is the visa that made them the highest earning racial group in the United States, having average earnings that is twice the national average.

            H1B visa is not a cheap labor program. It is a talent program.

          • lspanker

            So if all of you Indians are so great and highly paid, why are you a bunch of cheap SOBs when it comes to tipping in a restaurant? More than once I have had to correct Indian co-workers on their poor treatment of people they interact with when in a public setting. It’s quite embarrassing to watch them run waiters and waitresses around in circles, rarely ever saying “please” or “thank you”, then pore over the receipt so they make sure they don’t accidentally give their server more than 10%. Sort of like their parents never taught them any manners, almost like they had some wacky religious idea that they were born into some special caste of people who had the right to lord it over everyone else…

          • Anshuman Arun

            First thing: I belong to the OBC (Other backward caste) category in India. Second: I pay 25% of the restaurant bill as tip even here in India. Saying “please” and “thank you” is hardwired in me; I don’t think before saying those phrases – It comes naturally.

          • lspanker

            Well if you do, good, then you’re not like the vast majority of your countrymen. So how about applying some of those table manners here in this discussion instead of insinuating that others are uneducated and inferior to you?

          • Anshuman Arun

            That was not my intention! … but you are intentionally insulting me.

          • n6532l

            The publicly available Labor Condition Application (form ETA-9035) contains the wage to be paid to the H-1B does not support your claim about wages paid. You can download the data.

          • Anshuman Arun

            So how did Asian Indians become the highest paid racial group in the United States? Majority of Indians came to the US on H1Bs but many are spouses and children too. Going by this data, only the H1Bs make about $160,000 per year as the average earnings of Asian Indians (including children, spouses) is close to $102,000. Second highest earner among racial groups is Taiwanese Americans with $85,000 average earnings. Please go to google and find out yourself.
            Trump has proposed increasing the minimum wage from 65,000 to 130,000. It has not happened yet though.

          • Anshuman Arun

            I don’t think an average American college graduate earns more than $101,591.

          • Anshuman Arun

            Only 71% of Indian Americans have college degrees which although being highest among all ethnicities, is still less than 100%.

          • lspanker

            Indeed, he is acting like a spoiled child.

          • John80224

            If this is the type of superior analysis we’re getting on the whole, he’s kind of making our case for us. Just grab some popcorn and watch it unravel.

          • lspanker

            Well, he’s certainly not advancing the argument that we should be letting in more of this kind, in fact he’s making the case for the exact opposite. If this is the type of entitled, obnoxious and demanding person who represents a potential H-1B applicant, then we clearly need a lot less of them…

          • Anshuman Arun

            I apologize if any of my comments have offended you. I will still ask you to be specific though.

          • Anshuman Arun

            I spoiled your movie! How do you feel?

          • John80224

            Unspoiled.

            The basis of making the comment was that yours was a very broad comparison of a very cherry-picked group against an average across the US, from CEOs to part-time janitors. Of course a group that is so heavily skewed to having been selected for technology and medical fields will be better paid than a field that spans the entire range of US workers. Within the specific fields and locations where they are, cheap is an adjective that remains a consideration.

          • Anshuman Arun

            So what is wrong with these people immigrating to the US? Is it bad that instead of paying $300 as consultancy fees to a Doctor for a 20 minute appointment, you will get away with paying $200?

          • John80224

            Is it good to have a job you’ve done well handed to an outsider? Is it good to have significant sections of your field be made not available to you for having been born in your own land? Is it good for that land to abandon STEM because there are cheaper options somewhere else?

            Of course I’m happier saving $100, but this goes much, much farther than the cost of a doctor’s visit. My challenge is not with the immigrants but with the policy and system that is leveraging them to diminish my life.

          • Anshuman Arun

            Your comments assume that there are no net benefits to immigration. If you do some simple research, you will find that immigration is the single largest factor contributing to a nation’s GDP growth. There have been lot of studies done by American professors on this subject. I request you to read these journal articles; they will open your eyes. Your life is not getting diminished by immigrants. In fact immigrants are enhancing your life (standard of living) by increasing the GDP growth rate. America is the world’s largest economy, mainly due to its immigrants who migrated between 1492 and today.

          • Anshuman Arun

            You asked, “Is it good to have a job you’ve done well handed to an outsider?” Answer: If you have done the job well, then it will not be handed over to an outsider.

          • Anshuman Arun

            You asked, “Is it good to have significant sections of your field be made not available to you for having been born in your own land?” Answer: No one makes available anything to anybody for that matter in a free market economy.

          • John80224

            You are demonstrating your ignorance of how this visa is abused and why so many are so outraged by it.

          • John80224

            Again, you mistake my points. My comments assume no such thing. My comments point out that there are many conditions that are not positively impacted by immigration done for some purposes.

            Unfortunately, you seem to read studies no more carefully than you read my comments. Having lost well over $100,000 and opportunity to work most anywhere that has much career growth to companies deciding they could leverage loopholes in the immigration system has indeed diminished my life. I know that’s a first world problem, but it is no less true.

            A larger GDP doesn’t mean the quality of life is better for most.

            I’ve read many more of those studies than you seem to give me credit for. What they have opened my eyes to is this: Studies most often show what they set out to prove…which is generally what they were paid to do. Most of the studies actually prove that immigration has been part of the story and that immigrants have generally performed somewhere in the vicinity of their native-born counterparts. Is there some particular study or two you feel especially makes your point?

            AGAIN–I AM NOT SAYING NO IMMIGRATION. I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS NO BENEFIT FROM IMMIGRATION. AND I MOST DEFINITELY AM NOT SAYING IMMIGRANTS ARE BAD. I AM SAYING THE POLICIES UNDER WHICH THEY ARRIVE AND STAY ARE OFTEN GAMED TO THE DETRIMENT OF MANY AMERICANS AND PERMANENT RESIDENTS. THE POLICIES NEED TO BE BETTER THOUGHT OUT–NOT ALL AVENUES CLOSED.

          • Anshuman Arun

            No No No, I am not a spoiled child. In fact I am just the opposite of your observation. You don’t know anything about me. I request you to not make any unfounded comments against me.

          • lspanker

            No No No, I am not a spoiled child. In fact I am just the opposite of your observation. You don’t know anything about me.

            Your tone and attitude as displayed here make it quite clear what type of person you are, most likely another spoiled mama’s boy who is looking forward to an arranged marriage because you’re way too childish and obnoxious to attract a decent woman on your own. How about that?

          • Anshuman Arun

            This discussion is not about me. This discussion is about the abuse of H1B visa by foreign firms. Please read the article first.

      • John80224

        You have much to learn about the US.

        • lspanker

          He has a lot to learn about how to treat others as well.

          • Anshuman Arun

            I still don’t know what you are talking about. Can you please be specific?

          • lspanker

            I still don’t know what you are talking about.

            Of course you don’t, because your head is so far up your @ss that you can’t be bothered to listen to others, much less consider what they have to say.

          • Anshuman Arun

            You do not deserve to be called an American! You are a disgrace to the American people.

        • Anshuman Arun

          I possess more knowledge about the US than you do and I interacted with so many nice and polite people in the US while I was there. I too want to live in this great country and I want to live the American dream. Is it my fault that I love the US?

          • John80224

            That’s a rather bold assertion. You know more about the US than I? You base this on what?

            I don’t fault you for loving the US or anywhere for that matter and while we are at odds on some comments, I don’t want to close off all borders and deny entrance to anyone. But I very much to not believe that immigration decisions for the good of the country should be in the hands of the very few who get to profit.

          • Anshuman Arun

            John, I could argue the same for your great great grandparents who came to America and made profit for the organizations who they worked for. If they contributed to the profits of the organizations, that is okay but if people on H1B do the same, that is wrong? Isn’t this double standards?

  • John80224

    All in all, I agree. The elephant in the room is the abuse of the program which tends to crowd out some more legitimate uses.

    There is a somewhat smaller elephant, though. The author seems to misconstrue that paying taxes in the land where he’s staying is supposed to grant him special consideration to stay. UC Berkeley accepting him was not a ticket to stay at his whim. There needs to be some mechanism to ensure he’s doing so as a complement to, not a replacement for, domestic workers.

    I don’t mean to say that the author and many others like him are unwelcome. I believe the principle of the visa is solid. And I believe we are, in general, better off with good people. But there are more facets than the wishes of the person wanting to come here/stay.

    • Anshuman Arun

      Incorrect! It was the wish of the corporation who hired him on OPT. It is sad that he could not secure the H1B visa and more importantly; now his job will be taken up by a lower rung domestic worker, who could only secure lower grades.

      • lspanker

        Your comments are a bit arrogant and condescending. Ever consider that maybe grades, however important, aren’t the only criteria? There’s a difference between performing well w/r/t grades and tests in an academic environment, and actually being able to apply one’s knowledge in the workplace. Having over 20 years of engineering experience, I can tell you that in many places I have worked, the student with the highest grades wasn’t always the one who was the most valuable or productive. Sometimes the B student who realized that he or she had to work a bit harder than his/her peers to keep up and learn was the more solid contributor to the team in the long run…

        • Anshuman Arun

          That’s very true!

    • n6532l

      Removing all the abuse of the H-1B will not generate a single job for Americans. It is 85,000 American jobs going to foreigners each year with the current abuses and it will be 85,000 American jobs a year going to foreigners if abuses are ended.

      The fix Americans need is to end the H-1B and apply a tariff on IT services from abroad.

      You are in college man. Act like you earned it.

      • John80224

        I don’t disrespect the view. I personally just think there are cases where such visas could be used to complement the workforce, but don’t discount that that particular aspect is more a personal opinion.

        Not sure where you’re going with that last line, though?

        • n6532l

          The “O” visa is unliminited. It is for aliens “who possesses extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics or who have demonstrated a record of extraordinary achievement.”

          The only expertise an H-1B has to have is a college degree. Even there the foreign 3 year degree is accepted. To get an O visa proof of talent is required. No such requirement applies to the H-1B. To see what an employer has to do to justify hiring an H-1B search “ETA 9035” for the Labor Condition Application which the employer submits. In reading it bear in mind that as part of the H-1B law the Department of Labor is not authorized to challenge the information on the form. The ONLY reason for rejection is that the form is not complete. Once an H-1B opponent filled out the form and in the wage to be paid he entered a wage below the minimum wage in his state. The Department of Labor approved his LCA. Congress forbid them from questioning the wage.

          • John80224

            Yeah. We both know very similar stuff and aside from where we draw the line on just how selective the threshold should be (and to be clear, I do support a higher bar than what I think you take from my comments), we largely seem to agree. I’m just not sure what the earning college point was.

            Perhaps this clarifies my view. Cleaning up the abuse does not very likely mean 85,000 H-1Bs per year continues. I would expect 25-50K get used annually under a truly cleaned up program. If 85K are still going out, there’s probably a loophole that someone is still using, which means it’s not been cleaned up.

            I know that doesn’t exactly fit where you’d like to see the bar set, but we’re not exactly diametrically opposed on this by a longshot.

          • Anshuman Arun

            All engineering graduates in India have a four year degree. You have got a lot to learn about the Indian education system. In fact, the medical students have to go through a five year degree and then a three year M.D. You cannot equate a three year sociology degree in India with an Indian four year Engineering degree.

  • geez, uc berkeley ought to admit more tax paying californians!

    • Anshuman Arun

      International students pay three times as much tuition fees as “tax paying” Californians. Also, they are selected on merit based on SAT/GRE scores. It is not their fault that “tax paying” Californians are not smart enough.

      • maraba3

        But it is not just money.. Americans have been paying taxes. joining the services, fighting for the country, etc etc and they deserve the first shot at everything, Otherwise what is the point of being an American> Obama destroyed the nation concept; Trump is correcting it,

        • Anshuman Arun

          In fact, I support Trump too! He has proposed increasing the minimum H1B wage from 65,000 to 130,000. Suddenly my chances of securing the visa went up from 20% to 100%.

        • Anshuman Arun

          What? Taxes are not money ?

        • Anshuman Arun

          So you mean, Caltech should admit Americans having lower grades instead of top international students just because they are US citizens? Do you propose to have a quota for the former? Do you want America to become socialist and not remain free market?

          • maraba3

            So you mean, An American whose parents and grandparents have sacrificed their lives for this country should not be given any preference just because you think you are a genius?? And with an attitude?

          • Anshuman Arun

            I don’t have any attitude. Your thinking is misplaced just as you are misplaced into thinking that Americans should be given a preference over more deserving candidates. I am not a genius either. Can you elaborate on what Americans’ parents and grandparents have done for America that they want America to become a socialist state?

          • lspanker

            I don’t have any attitude.

            Au contraire. You assume that Americans by nature are dumb and have poorer grades.

          • Anshuman Arun

            I have never assumed that. It may be your observation; certainly not mine. Also, that post was written in reply to the fact that less than 1% of Americans have ever served in the armed forces. If we reserve excessive vacancies for them in colleges, then what will the rest of the 99% of the population do?

          • Anshuman Arun

            Please do not take it out of context. Defending my right to get the H1B visa doesn’t make Americans dumb. I think you must be intelligent enough to recognize that.

      • n6532l

        Seats in California tax supported schools should go to Californian regardless of SAT/GRE scores. Only unclaimed seats should go to foreigners. Their parents paid California taxes all their lives.

        • Anshuman Arun

          Are you a socialist? Don’t you believe in free market and capitalism?

          • n6532l

            I am a capitalist. I pay the taxes that built those schools to educate the children of California. I am not interested in having my tax dollars used to educate foreigners or out of state Americans.

          • Anshuman Arun

            Your tax dollars aren’t getting used at all. An average Californian is not that rich. This is just your misconception. International students pay ten to fifteen times as tuition fees, the amount of taxes you pay to the state of California, every year.

        • Anshuman Arun

          You also forgot that international students pay on average three times the tuition fees of “tax paying” Californians. They get few scholarships even with top SAT/GRE scores.

          • n6532l

            Does not make up for the tax support from Californians.

          • Anshuman Arun

            Have you done the math or is it just your “opinion” ?

      • lspanker

        International students pay three times as much tuition fees as “tax paying” Californians.

        To compensate for the fact that their parents weren’t US citizens or paying into the tax base that supports our universities, which certainly sounds fair to me.

        It is not their fault that “tax paying” Californians are not smart enough.

        I can’t believe we let rude, arrogant, condescending people like you into our country.

        • Anshuman Arun

          You are taking my words out of context. It was written in reply to someone else’s post.

        • Anshuman Arun

          I will make one more observation: Thank God that the US immigration officers who approve visas are not “judgmental” like you.

      • John80224

        Still doesn’t refute Mr. Merlin. The US is a nation, not a meritocracy.

        • Anshuman Arun

          Please listen to Mr Trump’s state of the union address. He has advocated for merit based immigration in his speech.

          • John80224

            I am not against merit being a component. Your posting seemed to insinuate, however, that 1) entrance should be allowed to be bought and 2) that merit alone is the primary decider. Taken to an extreme based on the unlikely end case that every last talent in the world wants to be in the US, that leaves only the top 5-10% of Americans in any field employed in that field. There’s got to be some preference given to a nation’s citizens.

            There’s also some significant reason to consider that when Californians with good SAT/GRE scores are not being selected in deference to foreign students who pay three times the tuition, some of the “merit” may be in $.

          • Anshuman Arun

            Think about the case where your parents had been subjected to the same treatment you are proposing for new immigrants, would you ever have got the chance of being born in the US? You said, “There’s got to be some preference given to a nation’s citizens.” In fact, had this been the case, you and your parents would not have been born in the US.

          • Anshuman Arun

            I agree that some of the merit may be in $ but this is what others on this forum have been arguing as well. They were saying that tax paying Californians should be given preference. If they buy off the seats based on $, it is okay but if a more deserving candidate does the same, that is bad. Isn’t this double standards?

          • John80224

            Again you overstep as you did when you claimed you know more about my country than I. Might my ancestry not have arrived, perhaps. But all policy should fit the times. A nation of 50 million people with a much higher need for physical labor is different than one of over 1/3 billion that is 150 years later.
            But I must restate that I’m not saying none should be allowed. The implication of your statement that my parents would not have been born here indicates that is what you are mistaking from my statements.

          • Anshuman Arun

            US population density is still only about 35 people per square kilometer. Compare that to India and England: 400 people per square kilometer. So this means that US still has a lot of room to take in new immigrants. If US population reaches 4 billion, then you can argue that you can’t allow any more immigrants to come in.

          • John80224

            I wasn’t speaking to population density. And when did I say we can’t allow anymore in? You keep mistaking my statements of conditions on how we manage the flow as shutting down the borders.

            In the size of the US, a billion could live, sure. That doesn’t prove either a need for having that many nor necessarily an improvement in quality of life from it.

  • Test Testing

    Basically you did not get H1B in your student quota / general quota and you are frustrated.

    • Anshuman Arun

      Far from it! There is no student quota and H1B abuse by foreign firms has to stop. We need more international students getting the H1B visa.

      • Someblah

        20,000 H-1b spots are reserved for students. If they don’t get a visa from this pool, they get a second shot with the main 65K spot lottery. Seems fair to me.

        • Anshuman Arun

          I did my bachelor’s in the US. I did not have any quota. Was I not a student? How is it fair?

          • Someblah

            True that. You need to have a Masters degree to get into the 20,000 slots.

            Said that, I don’t think Masters in US is worth it unless you have a large scholarship or if it is from top 10 schools in US. The tuition is just too high in comparison with the top Indian universities, and seriously speaking, I have hardly found any differential in the quality of CS education from IITs vs top US schools. On the contrary, education is very commercial here.

          • Anshuman Arun

            Agreed, when compared to IITs, IIMs, ISBs but not otherwise.

          • BlahBlahBlah

            So a lottery seems fair to you over a skill/education/salary based selection? It looks like you are past the hurdle.

          • Someblah

            Skill/education/salary based selection such as in Canada or Australia is always a better approach, but we don’t have that in the US. Applying arbitrary salary cutoffs means someone in SanJose would always get a preference over anyone on east coast say from a small Pennsylvania county. Forget that, cost of living in SanJose may be three times as much.